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Our Most Ancient Faith
Whenever I the use the expression “historical Christianity,” I do so with the belief that God has maintained the truth within His community of saints. The truth did not just “develop” as by evolution over a long process of centuries, but was handed down from the beginning by faithful apostles, successfully transmitted from generation to generation, and preserved in the ecumenical creeds of Christianity. Because I believe that God is sovereign, I conceive it as impossible that He should have allowed 2,000 years of Christian understanding to have been in error. And the evidence, seen on all sides, backs my belief. When I read Irenaeus, when I study Lactantius, when I peruse the writings of Cyprian and Cyril and St. Augustine, I find, not just bits and pieces of the truth, but complete systems of divinity which preserve the “faith delivered once for all to the saints” (Jude 3). The integrity of the Christian religion depends on such a view as this. And if any one cannot see how a sovereign God could maintain the truth even against the corruptions and frailties of His own creatures, that one must be blind indeed..
Sam Frost’s Virtual Reality
Norm Voss writes:
“Sam has actually denied in the past that one can know whether we actually exist at all even if we visually see ourselves unless we see that the Bible confirms our existence as being created. In other words the Clarkian extremist model that Sam embraces denies that we can know anything from our own observations as accurate without biblical confirmation. This is the gist of what Sam is trying to pawn off on folks as a system that manipulates everything we know through the Bible. If it isn’t in the Bible then we can’t know if it exists as that falls under the realm of perceptions and in Sam’s world perception is not reality. Try telling that to Thomas when Jesus told him to touch Him to test what is perceivable.”
http://preterismdebate.ning.com/profiles/blogs/clarkism-and-its-theological
Norman Voss: ‘I Have No Problem With Evolution!’
“By the way John I’m an evolutionary creationist just for the record and I do not hide that from anyone. Now I don’t think anyone else in the CC camp is an evolution adherent so if this guy wants to pin evolution on anyone let him pin it on me alone as I have no problem with it. Except I would not accept this guys application of a dead materialistic evolution without the hand of God inextricably enmeshed in every detail of this universe. Evolution displays the hand of God in the most magnificent exhibition of His glory in every detail imaginable and beyond our imagination.”
http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blogs/pret-blog-thug-pault-sticks?xg_source=activity
Norm Voss Whips Jason Bradfield
Consistent Hyper-Preterist Norman Voss writes:
“You are still throwing the whole science boogey man out there even when I have demonstrated biblical arguments alongside ancient literature to backup a historical Hebrew approach that demonstrates the symbolical understanding of Day not meaning literally 24hrs. This is exactly what we do in Covenant eschatology to demonstrate that the Parousia has already happened. We use scripture and we use other literature such as Josephus to help confirm our position.“
Jason Bradfield responds:
“When i use Clark, i use Clark to support the same exact beliefs and arguments that i believe. Clark’s views, at these specific points, are preserved as he intended them.
“You, however, are using quotes from Augustine to argue something Augustine wasn’t arguing.”
Norm Voss:
No Jason you are not serious because you are a professional straw-man builder. 😉
That is youre forte and you will milk that dry cow all day long.
In Texas we call your approach as “all Hat and no cows”.
So Jason youre saying Augustine wasn’t arguing for a metaporical application of Genesis 1 in the quote I presented. You need to go back and read it again Jason as you are simply misrepresenting what I presented.
You see if you really don’t pay attention Jason you end up making errant statements like you just did concerning my usage of Augustine.
Jason Bradfield:
Norm, in TN we call your approach, “all chips from covenantal cows.”
Problem is, i have read Augustine.
Where did Augustine say that old covenant started in Genesis 1?
Norman Voss:
Jason I’ll let the readers decide for themselves whether Augustine is presenting a form of Covenant continuity from Gen 1.1 until Christ in the following statement of his. Since you obviously can’t discern that Augustine is presenting a covenant connection from the clear implications of his six ages of Genesis 1then we will bypass your lack of examination.Matthew 1:17 the sixth, from John the Baptist to the end of the world. Moreover, God made man after His own image on the sixth day, because in this sixth age is manifested the renewing of our mind through the gospel, after the image of Him who created us; Colossians 3:10 and the water is turned into wine, that we may taste of Christ, now manifested in the law and the prophets.
Readers notice that Augustine place the begining of the Law from Gen 1 starting with Adam. It’s a similar recognition that Paul presents about the reign of the covenant from Adam to Christ.
6. But observe what Himself says, The things which were written in the law, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms concerning me.
AND WE KNOW THAT THE LAW EXTENDS FROM THE TIME OF WHICH WE HAVE RECORD, THAT IS, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD: IN THE BEGINNING GOD MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH. GENESIS 1:1 THENCE DOWN TO THE TIME IN WHICH WE ARE NOW LIVING ARE SIX AGES,
this being the sixth, as you have often heard and know. The first age is reckoned from Adam to Noah; the second, from Noah to Abraham; and, as Matthew the evangelist duly follows and distinguishes, the third, from Abraham to David; the fourth, from David to the carrying away into Babylon; the fifth, from the carrying away into Babylon to John the Baptist;
Here is the link to the Augustine quote. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701009.htm
Jason Bradfield:
The word “law” is not the same thing as the words “old covenant”.
I’m looking right at the quote and it does NOT say that the “old covenant extends from the time of which we have record, that is, from the beginning of the world…”
but, if you say so Norm…
Norman Voss:
Yes Jason I realize we have to spell it out for you. As I said this was for the benifit of those who you might have been confused with you gamemanship.
Hos 6:7 But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant:
Isa 43:27 Thy first father sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.I don’t know what covenant you want to apply to the Law that Augusitine was presenting but maybe these verses will help you.
I believe Paul makes it pretty clear that the Law, Death and Sin is tied to Adam from the beginning. Trying to disconnect the two is playing havoc with Paul’s understanding of the two Adam concept and would disrupt the idea of any continuity of the corporate Covenant body of Death.
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,1Co 15:56 and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law;
Let’s be clear here though that there were different covenants under Adam’s covenant of sin and death as the Law was added to Adam’s transgression to increase the trespass of the covenant people. We need to keep in focus that Eve was the mother of the Living (Israel) which is the lineage of the covenant people. There were two Heavnes and Earths, the first beginning with Adam and the second through the Parousia of Christ. Two overriding main covenants of Adamic death and Christ Grace, it’s really pretty simple.
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